Curse

arredondo · Aug 14, 2005, 12:08 AM // 00:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scaphism

The point isn't that there's no way to stop a necro from spamming putrid explosion- as you pointed out, some of those ways will indeed stop him.
My primary concern is that it eliminates other uses for corpses. One skill from the Death line renders the rest of the line useless. My opinion is that Death magic and minions are already bad in PVP, but that's largely besides the point. In the current situation where Putrid exists, the possibility for someone else to discover a different creative use for corpses is gone.

Follw up question: Wouldn't you be better off running putrid explosion yourself, rather than spending the resources trying to shut him down with stopgap measures? (And guilt will not stop him- if you've had it used against you, it interrupts your first cast and steals energy but it doesn't send the skill into recharge- not that it would matter if it did in Putrid's case anyways.)

The point isn't that other professions have no way to stop Putrid Explosion chains- it's that that one skill A) Eliminates corpses from all other necros B) Doesn't require skill to use, either in planning or execution, and C) Is a powerful effect that can and does singlehandedly change the outcome of matches.

A lot of that I did think through but thought that the follow up issues were obvious so I din't elaborate. If you use Guilt then that Necro will either wait it out (leaving the body for your team's Necro) or he'll cast through it and try again. Look at what happens... 1 second for Putrid cast (failed), .75 aftercast, 1 second for another cast to complete. If you have a necro on your team, 2.75 seconds is plenty of time to take advantage of a dead body. If you don't have a Necro, then just like with any class' strategy you are weak against a team exploiting a good tactic.

The bigger issue I see in your post seems to suggest that Putrid itself isn't an issue but the total Death Magic line needing bodies to be effective. It's balanced by the ideas I posted. I like to run a MeNe or a NeMe most times, so if someone is using my dead bodies, I simply use those Mesmer skills to put the perversion opportunities back on my side of the fence.

This is wholly keeping with the overall intent of Guild Wars... you do this, I counter with that, you counter-counter me, etc. In the case of Guilt, my pre-planning as a NeMe has almost ensured that I can cast Putrid myself without worry. Yes, it can singlehandedly change the outcome of the match, so send someone to counter my Guilt/Black Out/ A.Conundrum/Migraine/Diverion tactics on your Necro before I get to spam Putrid for my team.

No nerf talk should be made regarding this skill, but perhaps the issue for some of you is instead to beef up the Death Magic line. We'll see if that happens (or needs to be), but as of now it appears that if a Necro is abusing this skill, there are definitely sound ways to minimize his usefulness, as well as deal with the players who stop your Necro from doing his job.

manveruppd · Aug 14, 2005, 12:53 AM // 00:53

Just had a 4 hour session, played about 8 matches in the tombs (4 of them 2-way, the rest larger). The first group I was in had a Necro with Putrid. We played one match, our enemies didn't have a necro at all. The second group I was in I played 5 matches with. In ONE of those matches (the last one, a relic run), the enemy team had a Putrid Necro with them. The 8th and last match I played I didn't encounter a Putrid Necro, but we lost fairly quickly so there might've been one among the team we hadn't faced.
So there you have it, it's not that ubiquitous at all! I had 3 Wells going at the same time in one match, and there was nobody to stop me!
Putrid is a pretty powerful corpse-denial method, but it's not ThAT common, so you don't NEED to take it at all! Take your wells, your animation spells, and your Soul Feasts and use them fearlessly. Take Putrid as well, just in case, and have a look through the enemy ranks to see if there's a Necro there. First corpse that drops, you'll find out if he has Putrid or not, and, if he doesn't play however you want, if he does use it yourself to deny him his corpses. Simple as that!

White Designs · Aug 14, 2005, 02:12 AM // 02:12

Putrid is definitely common enough that you would have to take it into consideration when making a team, that pretty much shouldn't be disputed.

And the effect of the skill itself really is overpowered. In tombs right now, if you don't have a Necro with Putrid, you are at a disadvantage, period. You can talk about all the counters you want, but the fact is that there is not a single counter that can be reasonably used that would allow you NOT to take a Putrid Necro yourself. Well + Glyph? You're making a character with two rather otherwise useless skills, especially since NR does profane's job better, just to stop a corpse from exploding. And just say you manage to get the first corpse, what happens when the second one drops? Lots of damage to your team.

Guilt/Diversion is an option, but it is not an option alone. That's the problem. You cannot take rely on a Domination Mesmer, no matter how good to shut down a Putrid Necro. The Necro will just cast right through the Guilt and use some other skill to get rid of the diversion, then proceed to spam Putrid.

The fact of the matter is that the only counter to Putrid is to have a Putrid Necro yourself, or a Me/N with Putrid along with the previously mentioned Domination skills. Thus, you are forced to take the skill along yourself or be at a severe disadvantage. In fact, the Me/N really isn't viable either, since on the altar you will not be able to do this when there are 2 opposing Necros, and also it will be hard to explode all the corpses dropping and shut down even one enemy necro. Eventually, and rather soon, a corpse will drop and you will be out of energy, and the Putrid chain will begin.

What this means is that to reasonably compete, you must have a Necro with Putrid Explosion. An entire team is forced to take a character just for one skill, with anything else he does simply being an added bonus. Think of how much that limits the game; instead of designing a team of 8, you are practically designing a team of 7, with slight variations in the Necro, but emphasis on slight. A lot fewer combinations there are.

Skyro · Aug 14, 2005, 03:37 AM // 03:37

So... much... faulty... logic. Putrid, outside of the altar on hill maps, is most definitely not overpowered. Uh... period. If it were, then it'd be just as popular in GvG. It's not. Um... another period. Outside of the hill, putrid's corpse-denial potential has always been its strength, not its actual effect. Again, in a straight-up fight scenario, putrids effectiveness is severly limited, but its corpse-denial potential always remains the same. A corpse falling on your side of the battle likely won't hit anyone, but you do it anyway as corpse-denial.

And on the hill, NR in no way, shape or form outclasses profane + glyph. NR means the monk says "there's NR, time to recast seed" where as if a profane is dropped on the altar the monk says "well there goes our hero time to try to block/interrupt their hero." The mere fact that builds are so custom-tailored for HoH makes profane + glyph suddenly worthwhile.

And to say that you take a necro for one skill and anything is an added bonus is just completely silly. If I so choose to I could say that about any number of classes, but I do not wish to make myself seem short-sighted or ignorant.

White Designs · Aug 14, 2005, 04:06 AM // 04:06

Well of the Profane + Glyph, is very, very impractical. On the altar you are up against two Necros who have putrid mashed almost constantly. To even try a glyph and well, you need to cast the glyph before hand and then mash to Well of the Profane button..and there is still a good chance you lose. Not to mention that you aren't casting anything beforehand, to preserve the Glyph. So while the enemy necros are mostly mashing putrid and doing little, you are doing nothing, and there is no guareentee your skill will work. Not a good deal.

Plus, you've limited your Necro to N/E, an even more awfully limited combination as those two classes generally do not work as well as say, a N/Me or N/Mo, although decent N/E might exist. Not only that, your N/E has well and glyph, which are pretty awful outside of dais maps, so you've weakened your team even further.

Another large problem, assuming you get fortunate enough to get WotP off...then? Another corpse drops, putrid, another, putrid, the chain follows, and you're Necro has no chance to stop it, that's painful.

If the primary reason you are running a Necro is for Well of the Profane, I'd have to say its pretty dumb. That's not to say its a bad skill...its just bonus to the almighty Putrid.

And you would sound shortsighted to say you take other classes for one skill, since you don't do that. But not in the case of the Necro. That is not always the case. There may be a perfectly good spot for a Necro on a certain team, utilzing something like Lingering Curse on a spike team or Tainted Flesh on a conditions-based team. But not every team has a use for the 'other' Necromancer skills, yet every competitive team takes a Necro, why? Putrid.

Skyro · Aug 14, 2005, 04:35 AM // 04:35

I am not making a theoretical statemant that I might get profane off on the hill and that it might be effective. I've gotten profane off on the hill and it *is* effective even without glyph of sacrifice. Why, because real battlefield conditions aren't theoretical, and to automatically assume that 2 necros that do nothing but spam putrid on the hill is.

And well, currently I run a N/E. It *is* effective. My team has won HoH quite a few times, and many more times on the very cusp but was detterred by interrupters on the ghostly (again, more game design flaws). Mind you, not always as a N/E, but always as a necro primary. To even say something as one class combination isn't as 'effective' as another is also, IMO, very short-sighted. I believe any class combination can be effective, not on the individual level mind you, but on the team scale.

And while I said I ran profane, never did I say I did not run putrid. The skill is very, very good on the hill, that I do not argue. I am not sure as to the particular reason you believe I did not run it. I have it because it is useful corpse-denial, and is incredibly powerful on the hill. And since, again, my team builds primarily for the hill, I take it. Profane, again, is a hall skill, and to take is not 'dumb' in the slightest. Let me again repeat, good teams can very routinely make it to the hall and thus accordingly make builds custom-tailored to win it.

And people keep saying primary this and primary that. Who cares. If I wanted to I could easily say most builds are forced to take a ranger *primarily* for spirits, and if you don't run some kind of spirits you are more often than not screwed. Of course again, I do not actually think that all other ranger skills are just 'gravy.' Sure, there is a little variability in spirits you can use, but that wasn't your point. I actually agreed that putrid limits other corpse exploitation skills in tombs earlier in the thread, but as I also stated it is only in tombs this occurs and there are other venues of PvP. I have also seen quite a few hill holding teams that don't run putrid in my 50 or so times I've been in the hall.

And btw, a tainted-flesh on a conditions based team is horrible. Why would you want to put all your eggs in one basket with even *more* conditions.

Kaleban · Aug 14, 2005, 07:18 AM // 07:18

Its so funny to hear people biitching about Putrid Explosion needing a nerf, because of its usefulness in Tombs.

So... because a single skill in a certain situation is extremely useful and powerful, it needs to be nerfed across the board. In both PvE and PvP play, regardless of map or area...

I seem to remember that as people have realized the usefulness and power of certain skills, the "necessary" builds have changed to match. Rangers used to be crap, now they're all the rage, and ele spikers are beginning to phase out, when they used to be king of the hill.

What's happening is refinement. People play around with skills, find something that works great, and then run with it. Is it the skills' fault? No. Its the player on the end of the computer who is using said skill in a way that seems unfair. Does it seem right to be able to spam a bazillion spirits, using them as a defensive line, or as "solid" enemies even?

Its also very amusing that this skill is being whined about, especially considering the nerf hell that the Necromancer in D2 went through with CE. Same exact thing, people used a skill to great situational effectiveness, people who sucked complained, skill was nerfed terribly.

Maybe you should adapt. Use a Mesmer with 15 Fast Cast, and interrupt everyone. Or use more than one Mesmer? OMFG LOL NOOB BBQ WTF is the answer I'd expect. Perish the thought of coming up with a counter strategy and moving onto the next phase of whichever class acheives dominance, lets nerf, nerf, nerf. Pathetic.

PieXags · Aug 14, 2005, 07:31 AM // 07:31

Putrid is pretty good and all, but it's not really any more useful than loads of other spells around. I mean sure you can spam it, but no groups I've run into recently in the tombs really...gather around corpses for me to spam it and kill 8 people or anything. It's a pretty good skill, but no better than many others that aren't corpse-dependant.

Zeru · Aug 14, 2005, 07:54 AM // 07:54

This skill sucks outside of altar maps but that's not the point anyway.

it's a) skilless. Mashing or turbo controller.
b) Screws other corpse spells

That's this thread in a nutshell.

Mana Sama X · Aug 14, 2005, 08:27 AM // 08:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeru

Heh, changing Putrid to 10 energy per cast corpse or not would solve a fair bit of the problem here.

I wonder if we'll ever see it changed though. I wonder at this rate, if NR will even get changed

That most likely wont work because necromancers have soul reaping and consecutive putrid explosions will set of a chain reaction of deaths if all of the enemies are together. So if you have soul reapin at least level 10 you can do this without end.

Unless you are running a ranger build with quickening zephyr that could work by making it 13 energy but will still be a double edged sword because it will make the cast time a half second if not less.

Skills like Tainted Flesh, Putrid Explosion, Death Nova are what make a necromancer a great addition to any team. If you dont like it get used to it because necromancers are here to stay.

Also if a necro has the special boots "Bloodstained Boots" The cast time for putrid is ridiculous. "Bloodstained Boots" will make spells that target corpses faster.

But optionally there are MANY ways to counter this. You could have a mesmer cast Migraine, Diversion, Or Arcane Conundrum to SLOW down the cast time for putrids. Even Blackout can disable the entire skill bar giving you enough time to re-organize and regroup. Or simply drain the energy of the necro to prevent casting.

Or you could get another necro and beat the enemy necro to the corpses or run energizing wind if you are running a spike team to make putrid explosion take 25% longer to recharge.

Run a ranger build with distracting shot, debilitating shot, savage shot, incendiary arrows, punishing shot, concussion shot and have the rangers use a cold weapon and hex the necro with spinal shivers. Great if you run a Greater Conflag/Winter Build.

I propose that putrid explosion's cast time be increased by an additional 2 seconds so that way it is not so easily spammable with a turbo controller and rather carefully executed to take out a target.

Now about Nature's Renewal being over used. Yes I think it should be an elite but at the same time I dont think it should be because many other builds will be way too overpowered. You could then win HoH with a team full of enchants and keep them longer than you would before and making it very hard to defeat a team that is enchanted.

It's hard to kill a ghostly with enchants like mark of protection, healing seed and shield of (fill in the blank) skills or any other monk skills although you could run a skill like well of profane on altars wells dont work very well on other tomb maps. While you could take out NR, Altar Holding would run almost for an indefinite amount of time.

If you make NR an elite skill you cant take oath shot to spam it so serpents quickness would be a viable option with high expertise. As for making NR an elite I'm 100% in favor for this. It neither nerfs the skill or unbalances the game in any way.

Vusak · Aug 14, 2005, 09:43 AM // 09:43

even though putrid 'beats' wells, it doesnt make it overpowered. there is a proportionate benefit in suppressing an enemy necro from putriding so that your own can use the corpses to whatever purpose.

this whole thread just seems stupid to me, youre complaining about a skill causing another skill to be useless. omgwtf???

thats like the whole purpose of the mesmer skill lines lol.

putrid IS a corpse denial tactic as well as a aoe damaging device - by design..

its up to a team to offset the 2second cast difference and suppress the putrid.

even if a necro casts 'through' guilt, or uses an alt skill on diversion - thats valuable casting time that they have given up so that your necro can get the well up.

counter the counters ffs

Ensign · Aug 14, 2005, 10:14 AM // 10:14

Every skill has counters. That does not mean that every skill is inherently balanced.

Peace,
-CxE

White Designs · Aug 14, 2005, 01:24 PM // 13:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyro

I am not making a theoretical statemant that I might get profane off on the hill and that it might be effective. I've gotten profane off on the hill and it *is* effective even without glyph of sacrifice. Why, because real battlefield conditions aren't theoretical, and to automatically assume that 2 necros that do nothing but spam putrid on the hill is.

I'm sure you've been able to, but on the whole, you really should expect to lose to putrid, especially without the glyph.

Quote:

And well, currently I run a N/E. It *is* effective. My team has won HoH quite a few times, and many more times on the very cusp but was detterred by interrupters on the ghostly (again, more game design flaws). Mind you, not always as a N/E, but always as a necro primary. To even say something as one class combination isn't as 'effective' as another is also, IMO, very short-sighted. I believe any class combination can be effective, not on the individual level mind you, but on the team scale.

I must disagree. There is a very good reason why I almost never see something like a Me/R or E/W or N/W on decent teams.

Quote:

And while I said I ran profane, never did I say I did not run putrid. The skill is very, very good on the hill, that I do not argue. I am not sure as to the particular reason you believe I did not run it. I have it because it is useful corpse-denial, and is incredibly powerful on the hill. And since, again, my team builds primarily for the hill, I take it. Profane, again, is a hall skill, and to take is not 'dumb' in the slightest. Let me again repeat, good teams can very routinely make it to the hall and thus accordingly make builds custom-tailored to win it.

This is the bigger deal. You still brought along Putrid. If you can run a Necro practically in Tombs without Putrid Explosion, then you have a case. But you didn't. And you are missing the point by giving an example of your team's necro. I've won Hall plenty of times too, and always with a necro with putrid. But the point is that many teams have no use for a necro, just like many teams will have no use for a warrior, or mesmer, etc. based on how the team is designed. Yet the team brings a Necro anyways for Putrid. That's the problem, so whatever your particular team does matters not.

Quote:

And people keep saying primary this and primary that. Who cares. If I wanted to I could easily say most builds are forced to take a ranger *primarily* for spirits, and if you don't run some kind of spirits you are more often than not screwed. Of course again, I do not actually think that all other ranger skills are just 'gravy.' Sure, there is a little variability in spirits you can use, but that wasn't your point. I actually agreed that putrid limits other corpse exploitation skills in tombs earlier in the thread, but as I also stated it is only in tombs this occurs and there are other venues of PvP. I have also seen quite a few hill holding teams that don't run putrid in my 50 or so times I've been in the hall.

That is somewhat the case, but not really. Some teams take a Ranger for just one skill, Conflag being a notable example, but not every team takes a Ranger for one skill. The closest thing would be NR or Fertile, but that's easily placed on a /R.

Grindwarrior · Aug 14, 2005, 02:48 PM // 14:48

The real question is why putrid is the way it is and most likely will stay that way. You seriously believe the people who made the game dosn't know it inside out and are fully aware what putrid (NR too for that matter) does to the game? The truth is that games are in the end made to please the average gamer. Making some skills bad and some good is a good way to do this.

When most players learn how to play and what strategies to use, they just learn wich skills are good or bad. Then use the good ones and ignore the crappy ones. Everyone learns to use putrid and ignore the other corpse skills, some of them having both crappier effects AND longer cast times. This concept isn't so hard to grasp so even the average joe will eventually figure it out. Look at all the posts in this forum concerning what skills to use and people posting stuff like "don't use skill A B C D E F H or X, use skill G instead". It's the bread and butter of strategy to the dumb masses.

To the more intelligent very rare players this is trivial and they are more interested in combos of multiple skills, across more then one character. The over- and underpowered skills mess this up. It's annoying that some skills that could have been used in some cool combos were made bad just so the idiots get to learn that their bad and be proud of it. Then you _have_ to use some overpowered skill taking up a whole character slot that u wanted to use for something else. Most annoying of all: some overpowered skills make a ton of other skills worthless, like NR does to most enchants/hexes and putrid to other corpse spells.

If they make putrid into a balanced skill, they would displease a vast majority of their customers. Their simple rules of thumb "use putrid" will be thrown out the window along with all their hard work learning what's hot and what's not.

There's a good article by someone who works on magic:the gathering on this subject:
When Cards Go Bad

Skyro · Aug 14, 2005, 08:33 PM // 20:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by White Designs

I'm sure you've been able to, but on the whole, you really should expect to lose to putrid, especially without the glyph.

It's not so hard when corpses start dropping on the altar for me to put a profane up because this is how corpse exploitation skills work, in case you were unaware. If a corpse drops, we'll call it corpse A, and 2 necros target it one with putrid and one with profane, and it is putrided which creates another corpse, corpse B, the 2nd necro casting profane will still get it up with corpse B. With the high volume of people dying on the altar it is fairly easy to get a profane up, GIVEN THE DURATION OF THE MAP. I may fail on the first round of corpses or so, but eventually you'll hit it. And remember too there is always times when perhaps the necro(s) is dead, interrupted, in the middle of another spell, or just simply distracted that can lead you to get the well up. And you just need one, and their hero is as good as dead. THAT makes the skill worth taking. That becomes more 'versatility' in the build and in corpse exploitation skills. And seriously, as I've said for myself, it's already been battle-tested. If you said you didn't believe me or was skeptical about it I'd just have to agree to disagree, that's just your own opinion, but don't believe what I say and then say I should 'expect' to lose to putrid when again, it's been battle-tested. Especially since from what you've said so far, I'm very doubtful you are a necro player yourself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by White Designs

I must disagree. There is a very good reason why I almost never see something like a Me/R or E/W or N/W on decent teams.

I didn't say they were all equally popular, I said they could all, relatively, be effective. For instance I would never dismiss a character idea solely on its class combination.

Quote:

Originally Posted by White Designs

This is the bigger deal. You still brought along Putrid. If you can run a Necro practically in Tombs without Putrid Explosion, then you have a case. But you didn't. And you are missing the point by giving an example of your team's necro. I've won Hall plenty of times too, and always with a necro with putrid. But the point is that many teams have no use for a necro, just like many teams will have no use for a warrior, or mesmer, etc. based on how the team is designed. Yet the team brings a Necro anyways for Putrid. That's the problem, so whatever your particular team does matters not.

Unfortunately for the case of my arguement, my guild enjoys an offensive team build a lot more than a super defensive, hill holding one. We've tried to make one and did not enjoy it in the slightest, but if you so choose to make a hill holding team I've seen many who don't run necros. Not so much nowadays though, as in the past it was a lot more common to leave the altar undisturbed until the 2:30 mark or so and a hill holding team could just take it and hold it. It is not something I would suggest you to do personally, but why *are* you not taking one? Not to take a necro just for the sheer *sake* of not taking one? The real question actually is not if you should or should not have a necro in your team, most would agree you should in most cases, but if the necro can be tailored to fit into most team builds. What I'm arguing is they can, and yet you seem to suggest they can't. As if the necro is so unversatile that you label them a 'one-skill wonder' and that you believe you can't fit one in when you're already running likely 2+ monks and most likely at least one double of another class. Perhaps it's your mentality, or the class' relative lack of popularity, or your inexperience with the class, but regardless, that, I find, is simply outrageous.

Quote:

Originally Posted by White Designs

That is somewhat the case, but not really. Some teams take a Ranger for just one skill, Conflag being a notable example, but not every team takes a Ranger for one skill. The closest thing would be NR or Fertile, but that's easily placed on a /R.

As I've said, I didn't actually believe this. I simply pointed out I could say something similar about virtually any class. Like say, that if the monk class had only one skill, and it was healing seed, you'd still see monks in the hall (again, just an example, I don't believe this either).

But, alas, none of this matters, because I know what's going to happen. Putrid is going to be left alone, in its current state, unchanged, and NR will most likely be changed, probably to an elite skill. You can bookmark this page for future reference when the time comes.

White Designs · Aug 14, 2005, 11:29 PM // 23:29

Okay, the Well of the Profane point is really besides the point. Whether or not its a good viable skill in PvP really has nothing to do with my original point, which is that teams are forced to take the Necro for putrid. No matter how good WotP might be, its an added bonus to Putrid.

Quote:

It is not something I would suggest you to do personally, but why *are* you not taking one? Not to take a necro just for the sheer *sake* of not taking one? The real question actually is not if you should or should not have a necro in your team, most would agree you should in most cases, but if the necro can be tailored to fit into most team builds.

Please read carefully. I've noted several times that I always take a Necro nowadays, because of Putrid.

Your whole statement is tremendously shortsighted. You cannot possibly suggest that if Putrid didn't exist, every team in Tombs still needs a Necro, that's simply absurd. No matter how good they are, which they aren't, there is no way you should say a Necro is universally needed. Here's an example, Warriors are good in the metagame right now, that much is generally agreed upon. Yet it would be ridiculous for me to suggest that a Ranger team take a warrior. That just...doesn't make sense based on the build. And yet, if I make a Ranger team, I usually have a Necro, why? Putrid. That's where Putrid is broken. Imagine if every class had something as bad as putrid, where to not take it is a major disadvantage. Then you already have 6 out of the 8 slots filled, and you are effectively designing teams of 2 other characters.

Not even a monk is comparable to how limiting Putrid is. You take a monk to heal your team, and there *are* alternatives. The most common is a E/Mo to take advantage of Ether Renewal, a skill broken enough to function even in a Nature's dominated environment. But a Necro, well, you simply cannot substitute something else and not put yourself at a severe disadvantage to other teams. There are a ton of available builds out there, even with NR, that if Putrid didn't exist, are built with some combination that doesn't include a Necro. This makes sense since there are lots of builds which don't include a warrior, a mesmer, etc. No one is saying these classes are bad, just that they don't fit into a particular build. A glaring example of this is to suggest a Elementalist be used in a Ranger team spamming QZ + NR + Fertile. By no means does the class Ele suck, but its ridiculous to consider putting it into that type of team. This is the problem with Putrid. Its screwed up to the point that teams which don't need a Necro's services (which aren't very many anyways) has to take a Necro just for Putrid.

If you're team likes the Necro, that's good for you, but don't call someone short-sighted when you are the one who is acting like it. Notice how I rarely ever use examples of my particular team/builds. That's because I am looking at the larger picture of how many possible team builds are available out there. That number is a lot smaller than it should be because of Putrid. With a Necro on every team, there's just less options to choose from.

manveruppd · Aug 14, 2005, 11:33 PM // 23:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyro

With the high volume of people dying on the altar it is fairly easy to get a profane up, GIVEN THE DURATION OF THE MAP.

I'd forgotten about this but it's happened to me too, lots of times! If there IS a corpse on the ground when you start your 3" cast, the game will let you cast it. Even if that corpse gets used up, there will very often be another corpse on the ground by the time your cast finishes - in fact it's almost guaranteed if the enemy's Putrid starts a cascade. So you don't really need a spell with a faster cast time to Putrid: you just need to be faster than the enemy Putrid Necro when you initially cast your spell!
This makes Necrotic Traversal a far better corpse denial spell, although it doesn't have the sheer fun-factor of causing chain reactions as with Putrid!

However, there's a much simpler fix that no-one seems to have thought of: why not have corpse-exploiting spells use up their target corpse at the BEGINNING of their cast time rather than at the end? That way the only way to steal an enemy's corpse is to actually be faster than them at the off rather than having a spell with a lower casting time.

I'm surprised nobody has suggested this so far.

Skyro · Aug 15, 2005, 12:50 AM // 00:50

Well ok, you want to go back to your original topic? I've said it before, I'll say it again, it's tomb's game-design that is flawed. And putrid isn't even the most broken skill in tombs. NR + Oath Shot + whatever other spirits you want to run is far, far more broken. But I realize it's tomb's game design that makes this very overpowered, but the combo actually is also very overpowered in other forms of PvP as well, just less so. But I don't complain or make topics about it. On the otherhand putrid is just a good skill outside of the Hall. And you (I assume from what you've said so far - that they suck and that you're forced to take one) want to nerf the skill just so you most likely can just ignore the entire class all together. Hurray for versatility!

The latter is resetting, there's probably going to be a few changes to NR and perhaps even in the tomb's design, so just sit tight because tombs really is just a mess right now.

And manveruppd, I actually like your suggestion. Probably the best one I've heard so far in this thread.

Thanas · Aug 15, 2005, 01:14 AM // 01:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by White Designs

Okay, the Well of the Profane point is really besides the point. Whether or not its a good viable skill in PvP really has nothing to do with my original point, which is that teams are forced to take the Necro for putrid. No matter how good WotP might be, its an added bonus to Putrid.

Please read carefully. I've noted several times that I always take a Necro nowadays, because of Putrid.

Your whole statement is tremendously shortsighted. You cannot possibly suggest that if Putrid didn't exist, every team in Tombs still needs a Necro, that's simply absurd. No matter how good they are, which they aren't, there is no way you should say a Necro is universally needed. Here's an example, Warriors are good in the metagame right now, that much is generally agreed upon. Yet it would be ridiculous for me to suggest that a Ranger team take a warrior. That just...doesn't make sense based on the build. And yet, if I make a Ranger team, I usually have a Necro, why? Putrid. That's where Putrid is broken. Imagine if every class had something as bad as putrid, where to not take it is a major disadvantage. Then you already have 6 out of the 8 slots filled, and you are effectively designing teams of 2 other characters.

Not even a monk is comparable to how limiting Putrid is. You take a monk to heal your team, and there *are* alternatives. The most common is a E/Mo to take advantage of Ether Renewal, a skill broken enough to function even in a Nature's dominated environment. But a Necro, well, you simply cannot substitute something else and not put yourself at a severe disadvantage to other teams. There are a ton of available builds out there, even with NR, that if Putrid didn't exist, are built with some combination that doesn't include a Necro. This makes sense since there are lots of builds which don't include a warrior, a mesmer, etc. No one is saying these classes are bad, just that they don't fit into a particular build. A glaring example of this is to suggest a Elementalist be used in a Ranger team spamming QZ + NR + Fertile. By no means does the class Ele suck, but its ridiculous to consider putting it into that type of team. This is the problem with Putrid. Its screwed up to the point that teams which don't need a Necro's services (which aren't very many anyways) has to take a Necro just for Putrid.

If you're team likes the Necro, that's good for you, but don't call someone short-sighted when you are the one who is acting like it. Notice how I rarely ever use examples of my particular team/builds. That's because I am looking at the larger picture of how many possible team builds are available out there. That number is a lot smaller than it should be because of Putrid. With a Necro on every team, there's just less options to choose from.

I think you are quite mistaken. I play tombs and find it very difficult to find my way into a team. I rarely get picked for a team as a necro. This is because there are players like you, with little to no imagination when it comes to the necro skill tree. This post has been prejudiced against necros from the start. Don't give me any of that twoddle about putrid. Nearly every time you mention necros you fell the need to put them down. I have read your comments on the putrid skill. In all fairness when I have used this skill it rarely does enough damage to do any permanent harm. Its a good as a finisher if theres a corpse lying around but thats it. If you encounter this skill spread out the team. Simple as that. Warriors hit with it should be fine anyway. A little healing, no worries. Its not as though the effects of this spell are long lasting like condition/hexes. Its just instant damage. And if you think there is no skill in putrid. You'd be wrong. Do you think necros spend all their time waiting to spam this skill. I don't think so. It requires careful energy management and constant observation of the dead to utilise it properly. IMHO you've no idea what skill it takes to play a necro, so you cannot comment.

Kaylee Ann · Aug 15, 2005, 01:33 AM // 01:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thanas

Do you think necros spend all their time waiting to spam this skill. I don't think so. It requires careful energy management and constant observation of the dead to utilise it properly. IMHO you've no idea what skill it takes to play a necro, so you cannot comment.

lol, you have obviously never encountered a necro that joysticks putrid with a turbo key.